Paragon 3/31/07

Wellllllllllllllllll i came i wheeled i drank (mostly drank) and was back home via tow truck at 4:00PM. SUCKSSSSS. My best guess is the pinion but i'll find out tomorrow. I believe we were on Drumstick but i'm not sure. I was crawling up the rocks without any effort stoked about the 4:1 then all of the sudden forward motion ceased and i was wheelin in 2 low. No pop, no crunch, grind, or any other exciting metal puking out of the 44. Reason I think it's the pinion is because i can move the front shaft all over the place. So it was a short day for me, Kat was having issues with her brakes, the day started winching joe, then paving a road for tony, then all my problems and then I gave up on the day. Talked to Nester and he said tony lost a rear driveshaft so we'll have to get the story on that later. Oh yeah i forgot the part of almost losing the Jeep off of the tow truck...the rear chains pulled out of the flatbed and the tow truck drivers reaction was lovely. He says well that's a first and you would have been the first vehicle i lost off of this truck. So i ended up rigging the rear after the chain failed a 2nd time and used 2 ratchet straps around the rear axle and also 2 chains criss crossed. I told him the Jeep is cursed and when we unloaded it back at home it wouldn't start for about 5 minutes. Anyway good times...part of the fun of wheeling...i think?

Dang man sorry to hear about the carnage.

Wow...I guess it was just one of those days! Maybe you just don't know how to use your CD player Kat??? Glad to hear you made it back safely! Paragon wouldn't be paragon without carnage! I was also thinking about that Damon's comment and i came up with an amazing game plan! Damon's steak house or any bar i roll up to after wheeling...get bombed...instead of staying at a hotel i'll call AAA for a free ride home put the t-case in neutral and tell AAA and the driver "i dont know what the hell is wrong with her no front no back just tow it"!! I know i know...i amaze myself sometimes

Sorry I missed you guys last night...we had a little H2O in the engine problem in Lake Christy at the very end of the day. They pulled his plugs and dried everything out and he was able to drive out under his own power. By the time we aired up and left it was 8pm.

I still have the stock rear driveshaft from my TJ if you need it Tony.

The day started rough right from the beginning.

Joe and I were supposed to meet at Toms at 6... I got their early because I am tired of being the one holding everyone up... hehehe.

Danny and his friend Steve arrived on my tail, and we kept each other company til Joe arrived about 15 minutes late. Topped off his Cherokee, small talked with Danny about the plans for the day, and took off. Except Joe left all his cash at home on the table...

It must have been an omen cause it was downhill after that.

Danny broke off to meet his group in Hershey to run RC, Joe and I double timed it to the Gon.

Joe contact Nester, Nick, and Kat to see what time we were meeting up... they were still in bed after a late night and said 9 sounded good. Joe and I were ready to go by 8:30...

SO one last call to them and to hear they were just getting to the gas station, and we decided to head out a few minutes early to do some warm up runs.

We went the trail where JP Mag and Offroaders did out pub shots. This time Joe and I went the route everyone else took for the camera. He made it about half way up, and I followed. Joe made it 3/4s out til a loose rock flipped under his driver front.

10 minutes into the ride and we had our first near roll over. The driver front and passenger rear were both a good 2 feet off the ground. I hopped on Joes rock rail and hung off the roof rack to add some counter weight. Joe inched forward a bit til the rear control arms hung up on the rock and steadied it. Unfortunately that was as far as he was going on his own.

We spent about 20 minutes stacking rocks and using a come-along to free the truck, but our first attempt (to a dead tree... mr. land scaping expert... ) nearly resulted in pulling the tree down. (Hey Joe... whats that cracking sound? )

Re-attached to a LIVE tree for round 2 and the calvary arrived. Sure... just as we were about to free ourselves of humiliation.

Nester broke out the winch, tied on to a tree, and pulled Joe out easily.

Tony continued on now that it was clear, and nearly flipped in the same spot as Joe... Nester and Joe used a tie strap around the roll bar to keep weight on driver as I negotiated through, thanks to the help of Nick and Nester doing some paving to speed up the process. The rock Joe flipped fell in the wrong spot for me to navigate around, was too heavy to move, so Nester winched me over so we could continue on.

Kathy went next, but with no brakes she could not hold her position on the rocks, and ulitmately backed out so they could be looked at.

Nick tried... got to the point were Joe and I nearly flipped, and lost front power. No wheel spin at all. Something about that last obsticle is cursed.

So back on the main road we crawled under Kat's rig to access the brakes, and Nick to assess the axle.

With nothing visibly wrong with either, we continued on. Up trail 11 to the hill climb. Nick struggled all the way up. At the top he was soooo frustrated he wanted to call it a day. So they headed out. This was only about 2 hours into the day so far.

Over to Sherbert Rocks. We all did the middle line no problem. Up and over uneventful and boring with no challenge. So on to the right line. Nester went up... all good. Kat took a bad bounce off the rock though and caught her passenger rear shackle, with the driver front pinned against the rocks. Every time she tried to move forward the front tire would wrap around the shackle or fold over itself up to the hub nearly popping the bead. Since she had no brakes again (from this position we saw the driver rear caliper had not been working for some time since the rotor was all rusted.) we used Nesters winch to keep her from rolling back. Aired up a little, then up and over easy.

Down Cherokee Ridge no problem, over to Headless horseman and Sleepy Hollow... for those on the benefit run, this is where everyone hung up their rear diff on one rock, and right after that rock Kat lost her starter. We had no issues navigating on this run.

Through Sleepy Hollow with a yawn and on to a simple hill climb... well... nothing today was simple.

Nester went first. Narrating the benefits of a 4:1 crawl with hand throttle... He made it effortlessly. Joe let him make it to the top since he needed some speed behind him, and went. I waited for joe to make it halfway, then followed... I had a first hand look at what came next...

About 2/3 up there were 2 stumps on either side of the trail. The Wranglers went right through, but Joe climbed up the one on the right a little.

Then it slipped. It pitched the truck hard driver, and bounced. I think Joe and I said Oh Sh*** at about the same time. Lucky for him there was a log, and the stump on the left. His driver rear control arm rested on the stump, the logg ran most of the length of his rock rail. It had him pinned. He could not pull forward or back.

Nester turned around and broke out the winch. Joe broke out the come along to secure the passenger side to a tree so it would not slip.

Did I forget to mention the side of this hill was a VERY deep ravine. It would have been VERY ugly. Nester and Joe worked the winches while Kat got behind the wheel. She was not comfortable at all with the positioning of the truck, so Nester took her place at the wheel. THe truck went no where.

After a closer look, the rear drive shaft had landed square on the stump... the u-joint took a huge bite out of the wood. It twisted like a drill bit. It could not be removed while on the stump.

Joe carefully used the hi lift to jack up on the rear hitch while he and i placed rocks under the rear tires. Still no luck.

Finally I broke out the factory ram jack and placed it under Joe's rear diff guard. At full extension it barely got the rear axle high enough to clear the stump, but it did the job.

Pulled the drive shaft... duct tape and rag to hold in the fluid to the transfer case (thought of that AFTER we pulled the shaft), and moving on. Nester had to tow Joe a few times since no 4WD...

And that was it... I found a mud puddle in the parking lot to drive threw a few times just so I went home dirtier than I came, but the rest of the day was mostly rather boring.

Everyone agreed the highlight of the day was dinner at Damon's. We had a blast there... but no stories to share from that... What happens at Damons stays at Damons (much like the Comfort Inn).

Until the next trail ride... take care.

Tony

It goes without saying that if you wheel frequently you will ultimately damage several things on your rig. For those that can afford the constant breakage good for you, but if you are like me, know your limitations. You still can have fun without breaking.

Good to hear everyone has made it back OK, I would have been there with you guys, but my rig was getting the tranny repaired. Now I am ready to run again

Well Tico everything that broke on the trails where everyday items. I had fun just getting out and being able to run. I'm with Tony dinner at Damons was the highlight of the day. Its always nice to have a Cold beer after a long day on the trails. Its was alot of fun.

Glad you crazy guys made it out OK. Fun is good. Party is good, damage is not so good, But to each his or her own. Live life to the fullest I say, it's short. Be good.

Tico you'll like this...on the tow truck ride home he was telling me all his stories about towing rigs home and what not saying that paragon basically keeps them in business or at least VERY busy...anyway to my point...i told him how both kat and joe offered a tow home since they each had trailers and i said how they're both from maryland and i didn't want to put them out since a AAA tow was no prob...the guy says that's what is amazing about you guys he said you all will do anything for eachother and he said he's seen it time and time again...it's great satisfaction to be apart of that!! thanks joe, kat, nester, and tony for your help, tools, and time on the trail. Even though i broke and was out of there in 2 hours i had a good time! I'll keep you posted on the damage to my rig

Tony you have excel into a great story writer, great job! Now I feel worst for not haveing been there too. Keep up the good work. Kat you could tranfer this story to the Meet up too.

Bad news...

http://picasaweb.google.com/njf128/Carnage

The 4:1 TeraLow housing cracked...couldn't be caused from too short of a front shaft because the splines would have pulled apart...any ideas of the cause of this or do you think it's just a defective housing? I know it sucks though...3rd time the t-case was out in a week! The pictures kind of suck but you can definetley see what went wrong!

TeraLow 4:1

Thats a first.

Nick was the snap ring on at the front output bearing????? if not that could be the cause never seen it happen tho... Is tera replacing it?????

I don't know...i'm thinking the snap ring is what failed because you figure that's all that could put that kind of force on the case. As far as i know it was on at the front output bearing jason wouldn't have forgotten that or if he did he would have caught it before it was out of the garage in one of the trays or something. I pray to everything holy that tera replaces it or you'll see me dangling from the nearest tree. I talked to them today and he said the only time they had a case crack is from extreme frontal impact which pushes everything back into the tcase. I guess we'll see but i don't think it's going to be good. First off I need to ship it back to tera which is 4-5 days till they receive it from me then a couple days till they make a decision on a manufacturing defect or the cause of the breakage. It ruined my day though i can tell you that much i'm still pretty bummed out. My only thought on not making it painfully awful is if i can just replace the case at a reasonable price but then all the guts have to come out...i guess just wish me luck on a warranty replacement.

I have a 231 tc sitting at my house if you just need something to get your jeep back on the road/trail again.

TicotheJeepMan wrote:

It goes without saying that if you wheel frequently you will ultimately damage several things on your rig. For those that can afford the constant breakage good for you, but if you are like me, know your limitations. You still can have fun without breaking :

Limitations is was sets apart the men from the boys.

That and knowing how to fix things cheaply after you break it.

Thanks for the offer joe...if it comes down to it i still have the np231 that came out of it before the 4:1 so i may end up putting that back in until i settle everything with tera. i'm so disgusted right now i don't even care about the downtime. anyway...well said on the limitations joe lol...thing is i know my limitations and drumstick wasn't a trail that should have caused any problems and i got news for you I can't afford constant breakage it sucksssssssss although it has been a while

Well this just in...word from tera is my driveshaft was too long

hmmm thats a new one, how did they come to that conclusion?

Well i had a very long answer typed up with many possibilities and answers and input from tech from Tom Woods, Rubicon Express, Tera Manufacturing, and our very own Sir Rich but i wasn't logged in and i lost the whole message. Anyway Rubicon Express and Tera Manufacturing are both 100% that since my stock shaft was of equal collapsed length to the new shaft i had made it made the front driveline too long and caused the front shaft to push back once it couldn't collpase any farther. Their conclusion is reached because the stock shaft is correct for the Dana30. The dana44, however, comes out 2 inches more. The break of the case is textbook of a front end impact and the resulting break isn't uncommon in np231s in accidents and impacts. Problem that i have with accepting this explanation is that I ran that same length driveshaft WITH the dana44 so what changed? The TeraLow and the new driveshaft with thicker wall tubing. The TeraLow is the same size as the stock np231. The thicker wall driveshaft could have created a clearance issue with the belly up skid even though i thought i cut enough out for clearanace by getting to full droop on the lift. As Rich explained, even though I thought i had plenty of clearance to the skid plate w/the driveshaft, a push from the front end at full flex could have moved the front end as much as 1"-1.5". Other possibility was that I should have a CV style shaft and a bind at full flex could have caused the break. I called Tom Woods about this and they didn't recommend the CV for my application unless i was using revolvers and even then i should be fine. The build in Jrations mag consisted of the 1.5" Rubicon Express SOA although I think it had the dana30 and a stock skid with revolvers in the front...point is, no CV. Also a problem I have with the drivehaft lenght...Tom Woods said that in most cases with a driveshaft bottoming out you'll see that it pushed the cap out at the other side of the splines at the yoke. Good tip...he also said people sometimes over-grease the splines in a shaft causing hydrolock. He said it's not something on a driveshaft that must constantly be greased. Anyway I'm doing a lot of thinking out loud to as many people as I can so i encourage all comments, explanations, thoughts, questions, or just calling me a dumb ass. There was obviously a problem somewhere and i need to solve it with as much confidence as possible to avoid a repeat. I also hope to pass on any knowledge i can that i received from some of the professionals out there so others can avoid expensive mistakes!